Ashish Kothari<\/a><\/p>\n\n\n\nPeople gathered at a Freedom for Ocalan rally in Germany<\/p>\n\n\n\n
This is a recorded transcript of a conversation that was held on 30 June 2025, between Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (also known as Mahatma Gandhi) and Abdullah \u00d6calan, activist-ideologue leader of the Kurdish freedom struggle. It took place in Imrali Prison, on a Turkish island, where \u00d6calan has been held prisoner for 26 years. This is the second conversation between the two; the first took place in August 2023<\/em>1<\/sup><\/em>.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\nMohandas: Greetings, Heval \u00d6calan! I am so happy to be able to visit you again.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nAbdullah (with a twinkle in his eyes): Namaste and zindabad, Mahatma!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I can see you are in good spirits, and teasing me already! You know I don\u2019t like being called that.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nIndeed, I am only pulling your leg \u2026 I feel we bonded so well last time, you feel like a father-figure to me, and having read more about your life and works, I think you are indeed a great soul. But yes, I too, don\u2019t like these epithets, so I\u2019ll refrain. But tell me, how goes it in the afterlife? What brings you here again?<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Well, this afterlife continues to be quite a happening place, especially with so many wars and violence on earth, we get new martyrs joining us all the time! I\u2019ve even managed to meet some of your women colleagues, and we have had fascinating conversations.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nOh, really? I so miss talking to the women of our freedom struggle, they have been such a backbone \u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Indeed, I was humbled by their honesty and humanity! But I\u2019m back here now, partly because our dialogue last time was so incomplete, but mostly because of what is happening in your region these days. While I would love to talk about it all \u2013 Israel-Palestine-Iran, the continued imperialism of the USA, and so on \u2013 I know we won\u2019t have that much time. So, I\u2019m mostly here to understand what must be a momentous occasion for the Kurds \u2013 the dissolution of the Kurdistan Workers\u2019 Party, PKK, in short, I believe it is called? I heard that in March, you issued a call for such a step, and that the PKK has indeed taken it. I have many questions for you, but first, that\u2019s an amazing step towards non-violence, congratulations!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nIndeed, this has happened, Gandhiji, and I am glad it has. We had to break the cycle of violence somehow, and \u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Sorry to interrupt, Abdullah \u2013 I hope I may call you that, now that we have gained a degree of familiarity – but this reminds me of our last conversation, where you defended violence, but only as a form of self-defence.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nYes, indeed \u2026 and we reserve our right to revert to various forms of self-defence should Turkey refuse to accept our peace offering, and continue its aggression towards us. But we want to give peace a full chance, and to my mind, this is a powerful step towards that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I hope so too! But I\u2019m intrigued \u2013 almost no revolutionary political party in the world has dissolved itself; they always argue that their work as a vanguard of change remains. What motivated you to call for the PKK\u2019s dissolution, especially given that Kurdish freedom is still far away?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nYes, that\u2019s what everyone is asking me. Perhaps most people do not know that the dissolution of the PKK was built into its very conception. It was formed in 1978, and soon after it started we had said that it has the limited goal of putting the Kurdish struggle on the map, and helping build ground-level people\u2019s power, after which it may no longer need to exist. As you have recalled from our conversation last time, its use of violence was always purely for self-defence, and we were always looking for a way that this could be stopped. Now, I believe Kurdish society has matured enough, has acquired substantial radical people\u2019s power, and also that the world now knows about our struggle. So, I felt, and I think so did many in our movement, that perhaps the PKK is no longer necessary. Actually, some rethinking of its role has been going on for many years. For instance, we were always striving to change it from its original form when it was structured heirarchically and held power in its own hands, to become a party that enabled self-governance by people themselves. I\u2019ve explained this in a little booklet that you could read \u2013 called War and Peace in Kurdistan<\/em>2<\/sup>. Any party that concentrates power, like the ones in the so-called socialist states of Russia and China, is contrary to the principles of the Kurdish movement, contrary to true democracy and freedom.<\/p>\n\n\n\nAh! Do you know that after India gained independence from British colonial rule, I had advised the Indian National Congress, the main political party that helped bring us freedom, to distribute itself across India and help villages reach their true potential as \u2018little republics\u2019. Unfortunately, my very dear and beloved friend Jawaharlal Nehru and others in the party had different ideas. Perhaps they were also nervous because what was once a single potential nation had been split into two \u2013 India and Pakistan \u2013 and this partition had already caused a lot of violence. Also, they felt that for India to regain standing on its own two feet, a centralized economy was more suitable. Whatever the reasons, I think this has been a costly mistake, because it has, like you said, concentrated power in the hands of a small political elite. Whether it is the Congress or its main national rival, the BJP, the pattern is the same. Not to mention that a centralized, heavy industry and infrastructure-based economy has also weakened the potential for people\u2019s self-reliance, even more so now with private corporations becoming too powerful.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nMr. Gandhi \u2013 sorry, I feel hesitant using your first name, given how much older and wiser you are \u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n
(smiling): Nonsense! You must call me Mohandas, maybe it will make me feel young again!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nOk, Mohandas, if you insist. What I was saying was that you\u2019ve identified two of the most serious problems of today\u2019s world. One, the division into these rigid nation-states, and second, the global domination of capitalist modernity. The former creates a divisive sense of \u2018nationalism\u2019, and in a situation of intense globalized economic competition, a hostile feeling of \u2018us\u2019 vs. \u2018them\u2019. One country feels no compunction about exploiting another if this helps it achieve higher economic growth and more profits. Take a third factor, the spread of religious and ethnic hatred by a few self-professed dogmatists, and we have a toxic blend that the entire world is reeling under.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
No doubt \u2026 and of course, we know that a form of western modernity imposed on the world through colonial conquest is one of the roots of these problems. But these are complex problems, and the multiple crises the world faces today \u2013 war, ecological and climate collapse, inequality, authoritarianism – seem almost intractable. And this cursed ideology that is today called \u2018development\u2019, where we are willingly copying the West \u2013 a so-called civilisation I had criticized more than a century ago! \u2013 still holds sway in most parts of the earth. How do you think your latest move, dissolving the PKK, can help solve these crises? Of course, I know that no such step by itself can be an answer, but does it indicate some directions in which to head?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nOh, we are under no delusion that such a step by itself can solve anything. This attempt at creating a space for peaceful dialogue is only one of many that the Kurdish movement is trying. You are perhaps aware of our ground-level attempts to create genuine democracy \u2013 you told me last time that you called it swaraj<\/em>, about which I still want to learn more, based on ecological, feminist, ethical-spiritual foundations. We call this democratic modernity, or where several communities and ethnicities join together across a larger landscape, we call it democratic confederalism<\/em>. And one of the foundations of these is what we call jineoloji<\/em>, the art and science of women\u2019s freedom. This grounded praxis has proceeded despite the Turkish state and others trying to undermine it. With our latest move, we are signaling to the world that through peaceful dialogue, we want to create more space for the full flowering of such transformations. Only in this way can we achieve people\u2019s full potential for self-governance in tune with the earth. In fact, we hope that this could become an example for the whole of our region, which desperately needs pathways out of decades of conflict and violence that colonial and post-colonial forces have brought to it.<\/p>\n\n\n\nIndeed, what you are striving for is not far from my notion of swaraj<\/em> \u2013 I am glad you recall it from our last meeting. It means full freedom and autonomy, power being in the hands of people, but with responsibility towards the freedom and autonomy of others. A seamless blend of politics with spirituality (not, mind you, dogmatic religion!), responsibilities with rights, independence with interconnectedness \u2013 a society of sarvodaya<\/em> – where all can benefit. Back home in India, many grassroots movements are trying this, though the government is going in the completely opposite direction.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nThere is a moment of silence, both lost in reflection, and both aware that the conversation is to end soon.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\nTell me, Abdullah \u2013 will the PKK cadre now go back into civilian life, and help your people take their peaceful revolution further? And what if Turkey continues its acts of aggression against the Kurdish people, will you call for the re-establishment of the PKK?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nWell, I can\u2019t say what the PKK cadre will do, it\u2019s too early to tell, but yes, I do hope they will engage themselves in grounding their ideas and ideals. As for what we will do if Turkey does not respect our call for peaceful dialogue \u2013 well, you know, Mohandas, the right of self-defence is a fundamental right. Every creature will do what it can to defend its life. I would not want us to return to any form of violence, nor would I want to risk undermining people\u2019s power by setting up a centralised political party. I trust that the Kurdish people will find innovative ways of responding, without falling back on such solutions.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Well, as I mentioned last time, I believe that violence in self-defence is superior to cowardly giving in – but I sincerely hope it won\u2019t be necessary to resort to it. One last question – with this new development, is Turkey likely to release you from this confinement they have cruelly imposed on you for 26 years?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nI don\u2019t know, Mohandas. I hope so. I would so love to roam the beautiful valleys and hills of Kurdistan, eat food and sip tea with my comrades, visit the extraordinary people who have been so resilient through all these decades of struggle, see for myself the experiments at democratic confederalism and jineoloji. But I am confident that even if I remain confined here, the Kurdish people are strong enough to resist and eventually win their freedom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
I trust that is so. This is the self-confidence with which we threw out the British colonial power, though I have to admit that new forms of colonialism are being imposed by our own rulers now! Time for another freedom struggle in India\u2026 well, I would have loved to chat more, but I was given only an hour. I hope I can come a third time \u2013 all good things happen in threes, I\u2019m told!<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nSafe travels back, Mohandas. Do reserve a place for me where you are, though who knows if I deserve to be there!<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Oh, you more than anyone else deserve to be there\u2013or wherever else your soul wishes. I would be glad to have you there, maybe we can jointly stir up some trouble! But you still have a few decades on this earth, Inshallah \u2013 and will see your people freed of oppressive regimes.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\nInshallah indeed. Go well, and may we meet again. Jin jiyan azadi, and zindabad<\/em>!<\/p>\n\n\n\nAcknowledgments: This piece has benefited from online conversations organized by the Global Tapestry of Alternatives, on \u00d6calan\u2019s call to the PKK to disband and disarm<\/em>3<\/sup><\/em>, and the PKK\u2019s subsequent actions honouring this call<\/em>4<\/sup><\/em>.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"A dialogue on peace, non-violence, and self-governance 13 July 2025, Ashish Kothari People gathered at a Freedom for Ocalan rally in Germany This is a recorded transcript of a conversation that was held on 30 June 2025, between Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi (also known as Mahatma Gandhi) and Abdullah \u00d6calan, activist-ideologue leader of the Kurdish freedom […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":14144,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[71],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-14143","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-news"],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/07\/1010.jpg?fit=930%2C523&ssl=1","jetpack-related-posts":[],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14143","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=14143"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14143\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":14145,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/14143\/revisions\/14145"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/14144"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=14143"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=14143"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/freedomocalansyria.com\/en\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=14143"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}